Voisey's Bay Mine and Mill Project

Transcript of Proceedings of Public Hearings

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HELD AT:
Mission Hall
Utshimasits (Davis Inlet), Labrador
October 15, 1998

PANEL MEMBERS:
Ms Lesley Griffiths, Chairperson
Mr. Sam Metcalfe, Member
Ms Lorraine Michael, Member
Dr. Charles Pelley, Member
Dr. Peter Usher, Member

MS. RICH: Good morning everyone. My name is Katie Rich and I'm the President of the Innu Nation. I welcome everybody today and I think that even though this is a slow morning this morning, within the next two days I think that things will--you will see many people come to these hearings and tell you how they feel about the project in Voisey's Bay.

Over the last few months, we have seen a lot of uncertainty in the Project itself. We have heard many statements to the news reports and I feel as well as many other people, feel that the Project description of Voisey's Bay has changed and at the beginning of the hearings the Innu Nation had requested that the hearings be cancelled. At this point, the community is fighting other battles, such as alcoholism and solvent abuse in the community. And when they get upset about certain things, they get upset. And we have seen that over the last week and over the weekend that Davis is very explosive, anybody can say the wrong thing and the whole place will go. And I think that this Panel should be aware of the situation and as well as, I think the Company should also be aware. And I think that during the course of the hearings you will hear from our new Chief and Council who were elected yesterday and I think you will hear the same message that I'm talking to you now.

So I think that it will be better if the Panel again introduce themselves to the people that are here as well as the Voisey's Bay Nickel Company, thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for welcoming us to the community and I'd like to say on behalf of the Panel that we are pleased to be back in Utshimassits. We were here for the scoping session, enjoyed our visit and we're happy to be back here again. My name is Lesley Griffiths and I am the Chairperson of this Environmental Assessment Panel. My fellow colleagues on the Panel are, starting on my far left, Lorraine Michael, Sam Metcalfe, Charlie Pelley and Peter Usher. And we are a five person independent Panel that was selected by four parties working together; the federal government, the provincial government, the Innu nation and the LIA who sat down together and drew up an agreement about how the Environmental Assessment process should be carried out. And also how the Panel should be appointed. And our job is to take an independent look at the proposed Project and both through our own reading of the material that has been provided by VBNC and by listening very carefully to what people tell us at these hearings, we will then use all of that information to prepare our own report which will contain recommendations. And that report will be delivered to the two governments, to the Innu nation and to the LIA and will also be made public at that time. So that's the job that we've been given to do.

I would also like to introduce to you the Panel secretariat who is travelling around with us and supporting the work that we do. Brian Torrie is the Panel manager, always behind us. We also have two Panel analysts with us who are sitting over there, Angie Barrados and Sharon Baillie-Malo and Mary Webb from Nain is our information officer in front. And then finally, the other two people I should introduce are Bruce Moss and Robb Dawe, who are sitting behind us, and they're responsible for making the recording and preparing the transcript, the written record of the hearings and also looking after the sound system. So those are the introductions. And this session is a community session, today's hearing. Tomorrow we were going to have a technical session which we're focusing on a couple of specific topics and then again on Saturday, we'll have a third community session. So essentially the purpose of the community session is to hear from anybody in the community who would like to address the Panel on any subjects that relates to the Project, any concerns or issues you would like us to hear. So I guess at this time I appreciate the circumstances that Katie Rich has outlined and her introduction and we understand that. I guess at this time this morning I would like to ask if there is anybody would like to address the Panel at this point.

MS. RICH: At this point I think one of the first things that we would like to see speak is the Labrador Health Corporation.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you prepared to go ahead with your presentation? Okay, thank you.

MS. GRAY: Madam Chairwoman, members of the Panel and ladies and gentlemen of Davis Inlet. My name is Kate Gray, I am the Regional Manager for the department of Health and Community Services in Labrador. And with me is Boyd Rowe, he is the Assistant Executive Director of Human Resources with Health Labrador Corporation. We are here today to present to the Panel the services our agencies are involved in providing to the community of Davis Inlet, as well as to outline the nature and challenges of delivering these services within Davis, the extent to which our agencies anticipate the Voisey's Bay Project to impact upon health and well being within Davis and its residents, and the resources available to address these impacts and challenges. To put these services into context, we will first speak a little bit about the community of Davis and its people.

The people of Davis Inlet call themselves the Mushuau Innu or "People of the Barrens". Their primary language is Innu-eimun. The approximate population of the community is 560 people. About 50 percent of this population is under the age of 18. Consequently, while the current demographic trend in the rest of the country is that of an aging population, the situation in Davis Inlet, like other aboriginal communities in North America, is that of an ever increasing younger population.

For the past five years, the leadership of Davis Inlet, in conjunction with community members, has taken on the remarkable task of planning and coordinating the relocating of its community to Sango Pond. The reasons for embarking on this task are many, but of note was the community's need for an improved standard of living with better housing, running water and indoor plumbing, year round access to the mainland for hunting and a desire for a community location which was of their own choosing.

The Mushuau Innu have never considered Davis Inlet a place of their choosing. Their name for Davis is "Utshimassits" meaning "Home of the Boss". Many in the community attribute the social difficulties of alcohol abuse, solvent abuse, and family violence to the physical location of Davis, the change it created in their lifestyle and the struggle the Innu have had over the past three to four generations in simply adjusting to life here.

Sango Pond, on the other hand, is an area of great traditional and historical significance to the Mushuau Innu. It is an area on the mainland where traditionally nomadic Innu families would gather at certain times during the year. Marriages would take place, new children would be named or christened, and families would visit and celebrate. Many people in Davis believe Sango will provide a healthier environment for them as well as being able to accommodate more housing so as to reduce the current stress of overcrowding. Communities members believe Sango's atmosphere and psychological/cultural significance will assist in the community's overall healing.

Involvement in the relocation project over the past five years has meant significant employment and economic gain for Davis. Employment and economic gain which will continue through to the completion of the project over the next three to five years. This employment has meant a significant drop in the community's reliance on the department of Human Resources and Employment Social Assistance program. While ten years ago, the Social Assistance caseload consisted of practically every family in Davis Inlet, it now consists of next to none.

During the first three years of relocation, along with increased employment, there was a high degree of sobriety in the community. Most employment opportunities carried with them the stipulation that employees were to remain sober during and after work hours. In the first three years, most people in the community adhered to this standard. Along with this sobriety and employment, came a corresponding increase in the level of health for most community members.

In addition to employment opportunities, the relocation project brought with it educational opportunities. Band Council, in conjunction with the College of the North Atlantic, was able to establish an Adult Basic Education program in the community. As well, there was a commitment on the part of the leadership towards training community members in human service skills. Five community residents were sent to British Columbia and successfully completed a Tribal Policing program. Two residents of the community are currently receiving nursing training in Ontario. As well, a two year diploma program in Addictions Counselling was offered in the community of Davis Inlet through the Nechi Institute in Alberta. This program, like employment in the community, carried with it a stipulation that students were not to drink for the duration of the two year program. Twenty residents of Davis Inlet successfully completed this program. Many of these people went on to work within the school, the Alcohol program, Healing Services, Health and Community Services, the Clinic, RCMP and Band Council.

As indicated earlier, these employment and educational initiatives brought about an initial reduction in substance abuse and an overall increase in the health and well being of community members. Unfortunately, this has not lasted. Over the past two years, there has been a steady and discouraging increase in the number of people drinking again. The money that most families are now earning through work is going directly towards the purchase of alcohol. The resulting situation has been a dramatic reduction in the overall health of individual and families, a reduction that at the moment seems to continue to deteriorate. The minority of individuals and families that have continued in their sobriety have their overall spiritual, emotional and physical health affected through the overwhelming stress of trying to cope and maintain leadership within the context of the community. Those that remain sober are carrying the burden of holding the community together and trying to work with outside agencies and governments towards effective solutions.

I'm going to ask Boyd Rowe now to continue with the next portion of our presentation.

MR. ROWE: Thank you, Kate. I'd like to give the Panel some information about services provided in the community of Davis Inlet by both Health Labrador Corporation and by the department of Health and Community Services. Health Labrador Corporation and the department of Health and Community Services provide health services in Davis Inlet through the local clinic and the office of the department of Health and Community Services. The HCS office is more locally known as "Social Services" and shares its office space with the department of Human Resources and Employment. Both Health Labrador Corporation and Health and Community Services work in conjunction with other agencies and governance in the community such as the school, the department of Human Resources and Employment, the Alcohol program, Healing services, Band Council, Innu Nation and the RCMP.

Some information about the clinic. Health Labrador Corporation's clinic in Davis Inlet has a staffing complement of three full time regional nurses. Recruitment has been difficult but for the most part the organization has consistently maintained two nurses in the community. A doctor visits Davis Inlet on a regular basis and is available for telephone consultation on a daily basis. Nurses deal independently with most cases and decide when patients need to be sent to the hospital in Goose Bay.

Until April 1997, Health Labrador Corporation had the responsibility of providing public health nursing services to Davis Inlet. This responsibility has now transferred to the Innu Nation Health Commission.

Some information about the department of Health and Community Services. This department has a staffing complement of three, including one district social worker and two community service workers. The community services workers are para-professionals hired from the community of Davis Inlet who work as a team with the social worker delivering three main programs. These programs are Child Welfare, Community Corrections, and Family and Rehabilitative Services. The Child Welfare program is mandated through the Child Welfare Act and provides protection to children under the age of 16 who may be at risk of neglect, and/or abuse of a physical, emotional or sexual nature. The Community Corrections program is mandated through the Young Offenders Act and provides services to youth between the ages of 12 and 18 who are in conflict with the law. The Family and Rehabilitative Services program provides services to individuals with developmental challenges. This program also provides services to those who are victims of spousal abuse. The service population in this case is primarily women, however, from time to time services are provided to men. The specific services provided in the case of spousal abuse is usually that of counselling and assisting clients to find safe haven.

Within Davis Inlet, excluding the spousal abuse caseload, there is a total caseload of 80 clients over three programs; 50 in Child Welfare, 29 in Community Corrections and 1 in Family and Rehabilitative Services. This means that an approximate ratio of one child in every 4 (3.5) receives services from our departments. In the case of spousal abuse, our office currently provides service to roughly five women every month. This is up significantly from a year ago when spousal abuse services were needed for only one in two women per month.

A major factor prevalent throughout all the cases our office deals with is the issue of chronic substance abuse involving both alcohol consumption and gas sniffing. On the whole, children who are being neglected and abused are thus as a direct result of the care-giver's abuse of alcohol. Youth in conflict with the law are usually getting into trouble while they are on high on gas. They are breaking into homes, sheds, stores to find gas and a warm place to sniff. They are vandalizing skidoos and ATV's to get gas. They are disturbing the peace by yelling and making noise while high on gas.

As service providers in the community, we have noted along with the leadership and other professionals in Davis that when there is an increase in consumption of alcohol by adults, there is a corresponding increase in the amount of sniffing by children and youth. Underlying a lot of this substance abuse appears to be a considerable amount of pain. Pain due to personal suffering, whether that having been through abuse as a child or as an adult or as a result of other traumatic events in a person's life such as loss of a parent/sibling/child through suicide or accidental death. These mental health issues are currently being anaesthetized through the community use of alcohol and gas. They are painful issues which are not going to be healed overnight. However, they are issues that the community leadership, in conjunction with our agencies and others, continue to tackle with a great amount of perseverance, strength and humour.

I'll pass it on to Kate to provide the conclusion.

MS. GRAY: Okay, just to look at the impacts we see that the Voisey's Bay Project may have on the health and well being within Davis Inlet. Although beyond health and well being, there are many impacts of the Voisey's Bay Project which are of particular concern to the Innu. These are being addressed by Inco and the Innu Nation through negotiated Impact Benefit Agreements and are not within the purview of our presentation. However, in terms of direct impact on the health and well being of community members in Davis Inlet, we do not anticipate the Voisey's Bay Project to contribute significantly either positively or negatively within the current context. Although there will be and already have been, some people in Davis Inlet who are interested in working within Voisey's Bay, the majority of Innu will continue to be employed through the Sango Pond Relocation project. Judging from the recent history of Davis Inlet and the current level of addiction related social problems, employment with Voisey's Bay Nickel Company will not substantially affect residents' ability to maintain sobriety and increase health. However, for those families within Davis Inlet who are connected to Voisey's Bay through employment, there will be the benefit of access to the company's Employee Assistance Program. This may increase some of the resources such families have access to in order to deal with their specific health issues. As well, the work site zero tolerance policy, vis-a-vis, alcohol and other substances will assist employees in some level of sobriety, even if it is only sobriety while on site. The pattern for some, not all, but some of those who have already worked for Voisey's Bay has been to remain sober on site but to drink heavily for the period of time that they are back in Davis Inlet. And this has led, understandably, to a continuation of family strife and deteriorating health.

Although we do not anticipate significant impacts on the overall health and well-being of the community, we do plan to monitor impacts throughout the duration of the project and we welcome participation in this process by the Innu Nation, Band Council in Davis Inlet and Voisey's Bay Nickel Company.

In conclusion, Health Labrador Corporation and the department of Health and Community Services continue in our commitment and mandate to assist the community of Davis Inlet in addressing its considerable health and well-being issues. Throughout the duration of the Voisey's Bay Project and beyond, we will continue to work in partnership with the Innu Nation, Band Council, RCMP, school, Healing Services, Alcohol program and where appropriate, Voisey's Bay Nickel Company to minimize and find effective solutions to those existing negatives currently impacting upon community health. And we will also continue to promote with the leadership and other agencies, those things which ultimately have a positive effect upon the community's overall health. We thank the Panel for this opportunity to speak. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for your presentation. First, I would ask the Panel if they have questions that they would like to ask and then ask other people if they may have some questions. The Panel, in fact, do have some questions but they would like to ask if there are people from the community who would like to either ask questions of the presenter or make some comments on these issues.

I've just been reminded that I haven't explained that because we're making the recording and the transcript, everyone needs to use a mic. We have a hand held mic, so if you can just hold on a minute we'll get you the mic or you can use the stand-up mic. And the other thing I would ask is if people would identify themselves when they speak, for the record.

MR. SEGUIN: My name is Homer Seguin and I've been retained by the Innu Nation to give them some advice on health and safety. My question is, when you talked about you don't expect a significant impact on the health of Davis Inlet people, even though some may work there, is that talking about general health or is it talking about the health that the working environment might in fact impose upon them or the injuries they may sustain at work or is it just a comment. I think it's a comment about the general health in the community. Am I correct?

MS. GRAY: Yes, we're speaking to general health in the community and are not looking specifically at health on the work site. And by health, we talk physically, emotionally, spiritually in an overall context.

MR. SEGUIN: I thought so, but it wasn't clear. I think it's important that it is clear.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there other people who've got questions for the presenters or want to make a comment about any of these aspects, anything to do with health in the community? And again, if I can say that we need to always have it spoken into a mic so we make sure we get it on the record.

MS. RICH: I only have one comment. On page six, at the top it says, "This responsibility has subsequently been transferred to the Innu Nation Health Commission". I just want to make a correction here that the responsibility of the public health services has been transferred to the two Band councils instead of the Innu Nation.

MS. GRAY: Thanks Katie.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there other comments at this moment? If not, I'll ask -

MR. ROWE: Madam Chair, one item that's perhaps not noted in the presentation as it should be and that being that many of the acute health problems that we face in the clinic in Davis Inlet are a direct result of alcohol abuse, solvent abuse, family issues. And perhaps that's not as clear in the presentation as it should be and I just wanted to make that note.

MS. MICHAEL: Yes, Kate or Boyd whichever one of you wants to respond. In a couple of places in your presentation, you talk about how the Health Labrador Corporation works in conjunction with the Band Council, Innu Nation, RCMP, etcetera, you name several of the agencies here in the community and you refer to that both in terms of the present situation and in terms of your hopes with regard to monitoring the impact of the Project. And I guess I would like a little bit more detail about how that happens when you talk about consultation, what exactly is that process and is there involvement from the community in actual decision making when decision making time comes with regard to the services and to programs.

MS. GRAY: Consultation occurs on a variety of levels and actually what we've discovered in working in the community is that it is impossible to work in isolation and it goes counter to what is needed in terms of support to the entire community and to families. Most cases that we deal with, for example, with the department of Health and Community Services with the youth, have implications. They're clients with Healing Services, they're clients with perhaps the RCMP and so on, that we're--with individual cases, we're getting together around case planning and decision making. Very often, you know, we involve Katie or other leaders within the community and elders about how we should proceed in terms of addressing particular situations. And we certainly, as agencies, are lost without that involvement. On an overall level we continue, in terms of looking at long term, how do we deal with the whole community. In the long term, it's every individual in Davis Inlet that needs to come together to help raise the children in Davis Inlet and to address the issues of alcohol abuse and solvent abuse. So there is a constant discussion around how do we do that and how best does the Innu Nation and the Band Council and the other services want us to be involved in their community. So we very much take the lead from the community.

MS. MICHAEL: Just a follow up, is that done in sort of systematic way, like do you have joint committees? I'm trying to get an idea of how it actually operates.

MS. GRAY: I know that our office has set up what's called inter-agency meetings in conjunction with others that try to meet once a month. Now there's times when that doesn't happen because of various things that may be going on, but is trying to meet on a regular basis to look at the long term, as well as on a day to day basis with individual cases. And Boyd may want to speak too to this.

MR. ROWE: Yes, I think too with the gradual devolution of services to groups like the Innu Nation Health Commission, the Band Council, that in itself has generated an ongoing discussion and consultation process. As an example, the discussions, that have taken place this past year and a half, on the devolution of public health, that and ongoing discussion of how services are to be provided, that's something we certainly want to promote on an ongoing basis.

MS. MICHAEL: And I just have one more. This is a separate issue. In the first part of your presentation, you present your agency's perception of the community and you describe the various things that are happening in the community because of the relocation project and especially around training and education that's going on, is there any money from your agency involved in all of those efforts or are these efforts that are being carried on by the community itself, the Innu Nation and Band Council. It's not clear to me what you're implying here, especially the section on page four when you talk about those who are getting training in British Columbia, Addictions Counselling, etcetera, etcetera, you outline quite a number of things there.

MS. GRAY: Okay. Most of what we were trying to describe, it was in general what had been going on in the community and some of the commitments Band Council and Innu Nation had made towards the needs of trained people within their community. I know that specifically with the Addictions Counselling program, we contributed funds in the sense that our staff, our community service workers who are people from both the communities of Davis Inlet and Sheshatshiu, because the Addictions Counselling program was also offered in the community of Sheshatshiu. We provided time and travel for our staff to attend that training and of course that was time and travel and money that Band Council and Innu Nation didn't need to spend towards training those individuals and we're very supportive in whatever way we can in terms of those trainings. Our department didn't specifically provide funds around the Tribal Policing program but those certainly that are linked with our services we have--the clinic--there are two people at the moment who are currently away getting nursing training and I'm not sure how involved Health Labrador Corporation has been with that but there has been some involvement through that training.

MR. ROWE: Yes, there's certainly been a lot of involvement there. Our organization has sponsored and been a participant in nursing access programs and those programs have seen a number of nurses and individuals along the coast proceed and finish high school and go on to nursing and there's been a lot of participation in encouraging that process.

MS. GRAY: Essentially, whatever we can do in terms of supporting some of that happening we will and I know currently within our own department we're working with the Innu Nation and Band Council in Sheshatshiu, that links here to Davis Inlet and we're looking at university training for social work because there's a real need for local people to be trained in social work.

MS. MICHAEL: Thank you very much.

DR. USHER: You've indicated in your presentation that the--it's on page four I guess, that while there'd been great decrease in alcohol and substance abuse over the first three years of the relocation, that in the past two years that had changed and I'm wondering if you had any particular explanation as to why that might be so.

MS. GRAY: I'm not really sure what I could put on a finger on that. I think some of it, certainly, looking at our own staff, because I've worked most closely with our staff and some of the leadership in the community. At the time that this whole rejuvenation that came along with the relocation project started, there was a lot of energy and hope on the part of people and I think what energy to come back and assist their community and help with the problems. And what's happened over the last two years is that those people who put in a lot of their energy over the first three years start realizing that it's not going to change overnight and they're getting tired and some have lost some hope and have fallen back. Others who may still be sober are needing a break that they can't put all their energy all the time into dealing with issues in the community. I know that there are perhaps other reasons that Katie can speak to, but with those in the community that I have spoken to, they talk of a great sense of being tired and overwhelmed with the amount of pain that's in the communities and the length of time that it would take to deal with those. That seems to have been a lax again and what it will take to turn that around, I'm not sure.

DR. USHER: But you do mention that the Social Assistance caseload declined to about zero and that it still is the case that there's hardly any Social Assistance?

MS. GRAY: The department of Human Resources and Employment, their caseload is less than 20 and above those, there's only about ten families which it's very small within the community context. So others in the community are earning a wage through employment or they're currently on unemployment insurance benefits but the situation over the last five years has been there's been enough seasonal employment that there's a wage in most families, that there has been not a need for Social Assistance.

DR. USHER: Just so I understand this, Social Assistance is handled by a separate department than yours, the caseload that you talk about at the bottom of page six is something totally different?

MS. GRAY: Yes, up until April 1st of this year, it was part of our department's responsibility or rather we were part, our services and programs were part of the department of Human Resources and Employment. We're undergoing a transition at the moment. Our three programs at Child Welfare, Youth Corrections and Family and Rehab left the department of Human Resources and Employment on April 1st of this year and transferred to the department of Health and Community Services. We're currently in discussions with the Health Labrador Corporation. Over the long term, over the next year we will ultimately transfer those three programs to the Health Labrador Corporation.

DR. PELLEY: I just wanted to ask as part of the relocation project, you are presumably building bigger and better facilities in a new location or what's going on there?

MS. GRAY: Well, we're not doing any building with the new location as far as--if you mean office space for our clinic space for us, a lot of the direction for that will come from the Mushuau renewal committee and the community. So we don't know at the moment.

DR. PELLEY: So this is then seen as part of the devolution of -

MS. GRAY: Yes, I mean there's many, there's many steps here. The fact that we're going to Health Labrador Corporation is--the Health Board, it's falling in line with a move that has happened all over the province. I mean ultimately, of course, we're still--our government is in discussions with both the Innu Nation and the Labrador Innuit Association for ultimate evolution of services.

CHAIRPERSON: I guess I've got one question and I don't know who wants to respond to it, maybe people from the community would prefer to. And it's a question about at the bottom of page four where you talk about the money that most families are now earning through work is going directly towards buying alcohol. And I guess I'm interested in knowing have there been some programs to help people around money management or is it also, the fact that you're building a new community, is it making more difficult for people to feel like they can invest their money that they earn in this community and their houses because we've seen in a number of communities we've been to where there's been a fair bit of investment in people's homes which people often like to do but I mean the people feel now there's not much point because you've got a new community that's being built and does that contribute somehow to not where the money goes to? So I don't know whether someone from the community would like to answer that.

MS. RICH: Yes, I just want to make a few comments on the presentation by Kate. You know, I think that if you are ready to talk about things, I think you should be ready to answer the questions that are being asked. I think that, you know, the community know what's happening and we do have a group of people that handle the relocation of Davis and I think, you know, these people are capable and will be capable, I'm speaking on relocation. Over the last few months we have seen an increase of employment in the community. We have seen an increase of alcohol being brought in to the community. We do have towns that are next to us, Hopedale and Nain. Last month, at one weekend, nine boats went to Nain to get beer. So it's easier to have access to beer that's being brought in. A couple of weeks ago--well, this is not an isolated incident. When these boats come back from Nain, those people that bring it in have--when they drink, the young people that are walking around in the nights end up stealing the beer and they, you know, they end up being drunk as well. About two weeks ago--I have two boys that are going to school, nine and seven. Their friends were playing at the school and it just so happens that there was a beer can on the ground and one of the boys decided to pick it up and there was beer in the can. And of course the boys decided that they wanted to experiment, so each of the boys took a sip of that beer. What I'm concerned about as--when I tried to provide an alcohol free environment for my children at home, I have to worry about them when they leave outside and you know. So they might end up picking up some other things that are dangerous to them such as drugs. We are starting to see drugs being brought into the community as well.

So those kind of things that we have to worry about. On top of that we have to worry about the Project in Voisey's Bay and you know, those--in the meantime, we are also working on our new town, on our new village in Natuashish and I think that, you know, those things that you have to consider when you hear, when people talk about these things. So again, I would like to correct Mr. Rowe, that the Innu Health Commission does not have a health, it's the two Band Council, so--thank you for listening to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS. RICH: I do have a list here of people that want to make comments from the public. Sorry, the first person that was supposed to speak is not here.

CHAIRPERSON: What would you like to do about breaks? The people would like to speak now before the lunch break?

MS. RICH: It's probably a good idea to have that lunch break right now.

CHAIRPERSON: Would that work now, to do it?

MS. RICH: 2:00 or something.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, are you asking -

UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I'm just asking if you were finished your -

CHAIRPERSON: I believe that the people who are going to speak are going to be speaking on the issues that have been in the presentation. So the suggestion has been made that we actually do take the lunch break now and then that when we come back you have a list of people who would like to speak on the issues of health that were presented this morning. And that sounds like a good plan, so I'd like to thank everyone very much. So we resume at 2:00 this afternoon.

(LUNCH BREAK)

MS. RICH: Before we go any further, I've been informed by the others that are here, the process that we are doing right now is very complicated to them. I think--I'll just have to explain why the Panel is here and why the Company is here and that sort of thing, so we need to I guess refresh their memories in the last scoping hearings we had a few months ago, so that they'll know. They cannot, I guess, understand why the department of Social Services is making a presentation, so we need to explain to them that so that they can know what's happening.

INTERPRETER SPEAKING FOR MS. KATIE RICH: A few months ago when we started--when they discovered the discovery at the Voisey's Bay. We done it before, how the process--when they first step in, when the Panel came in few months ago. The Panel were asked to travel all different communities to hear from them what the concerns are, what the Project would look like at the Voisey's Bay.

The Innu Nation had a mandate given some funding to work on together, how they feel, how they think, what are the impacts going to be once the Project started at the Voisey's Bay. The Innu Nation had hired the experts how the mill would look like. They had discussed it few months ago to the Panel and we had hired Georg Henriksen to put his input and concerns and there was--an individual was here this morning that he was and they had worked with it for year round and a documentary that was made by the Innu Nation and so this is how the documentary being made by the Innu and that's going to be the impacts of once the mines or the mill started at the Voisey's Bay.

The Panel had requested, had asked the individuals to come and speak and the Human Resources and the Health Board had come to attend this public hearing. And what would look like the impacts, the impacts if the mines go ahead. The Health Board and the Human Resources have their own input, what are the impacts going be, especially for the Innu people. And this is why the Panel had raised some questions to Health Board and Human Resources. And those is why the Panel have some questions and the individual from the community will have some concerns and will raise questions to including the Voisey's Bay Company. And this is when the discussions will begin. And we will give the individuals from the community--put their input and raise their concerns. Anyone who don't have those translations service, they can pick one up here. When we adjourned dinner time, the discussion wasn't over, how they see the community and we adjourned for lunch and here I got the list of the people that want to speak to the Panel, the Company and so we will start from there.

The first one on the list was Sylvester Rich but he's not here at the moment and the next one, he's Joachim Nui.

INTERPRETER SPEAKING FOR JOACHIM NUI: My name is Joachim Nui, I'm from Davis Inlet and I was born in Davis. I was born in the area of Mistassin Lake and this is when I first remember when I was growing up I was at Voisey's Bay area which we call Emish. After my grandfather passed away, so we moved back to Davis Inlet. So I stayed in Davis all that time and now I'm 63. Ever since I can see the land when I was growing up. When I was growing up I didn't see a difference from the land since today. I see a whole lot of difference at the land now. And again, I don't feel very well and I don't like what I see. I can see the day when I was growing up, when 1950 and there was no employment at that time. Can't find no employment at that time. So I think about all those times. All those times I can think of and coming to the community. And I wasn't feeling very comfortable when I hear there's big opportunities coming in. I see that today and I see a big opportunity employment at our territory. When I think about when I was growing up and there's big projects coming up over the land and now I can see people fighting against each other over the Project. When I think about people trying to stop the development that's going to go ahead and I have a feeling now that I don't like it. I'm not saying that I don't like the money and I'm also not saying that I don't like the development. Not only me, not only me I can think of what myself once development starts, I can also think about my grandchildren if the Project goes ahead. There is a lot of views in around the community if the Project goes ahead.

Not only just the Innu people, also look at the Inuit, the younger generation and I'm probably not going to work at the development because I'm very close to retirement. I'm also happy, I know there is something in--if the development goes ahead at Voisey's Bay, at Emish, there's certain things that we have to look after. There's certain things we need to look after if the development starts. I can understand the many obstacles that if the development starts. I can understand the concerns what they have. Only what I think. I think that the Company should be very careful what they're dealing with because the Innu have most impact from it. And the other thing, if you look at the community itself, you can see crisis. There's a lot of people from the community want to help out and some of the outsiders as well. And I'm also saying that we would like to work together to solve this problem in what we face in the community. I can understand different people have different opinions on different things and that's why the disruptions begin. And again, the relocation for the Innu, what I thought--I've been saying that many times in the meetings. We need to go a different path once the relocation is over. We want to find a way. We want to find a way where the healing can start. We want to leave this community behind, the things that cause us to face those crises in the community, at the present community. I can see in Davis it's alcohol that's ruined us our lives in the community. That's twice I've been saying this. If we don't take alcohol with us at the new site which is Natuashin and I think we can believe in a better life.

It is not easy, it has been very easy for a person that drinks, but I've been a drinker myself. It is over 43 years I've been sober. I believe alcohol can ruin the life but I also hear that before when I started drinking, now that I know alcohol can ruin the life of the Innu. I'm not against the Project that's going to go ahead because I know there's people will be working there. The only thing I'm very concerned is the environment. Many of the Innu can say the land belongs to the Innu. All I have to say, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

MS. RICH: That was Jack Nui, an elder in the community. The next person on the list is Sylvester Rich.

MR. RICH: My name is Sylvester Rich, where I'm from, I was born in Davis Inlet. Not only this, I was born in Sango Bay. Once again, I would like to thank you and to meet with you again to listen our Innu concerns. I was here at that time when the Panel was here last time. I was also there when the Panel came up to Sheshatshiu.

In Davis I can see. Sometimes I think about Davis and have a feeling towards Davis. I can recognize the Innu in Davis very well because my family members grew up here as well. Now that I'm living in Sheshatshiu, almost 30 years I've been living there now. And again, when I heard Joachim speaking, talking about alcohol, alcohol--I haven't touched alcohol over five years but I can notice that alcohol can ruin my life when I was still drinking. When I was a drunk I didn't recognize the Innu values are. When I left alcohol five years ago, then I started to realize what the Innu values are. A lot of times my father used to spend a lot of times in the country, in Nutshimist. This is where I left my father, my late father to move to another community. After one year, two years, I left Davis. I went into meetings before but I didn't know what they were talking about but right now I have a pretty good idea what the discussion is. I used to laugh when people at the meetings, now at this meeting I can't laugh at all now. It's been almost two years I worked for the Innu. The Innu Nation has a community consultation and the animals. This is how I get some of the Innu values, know about my culture, by working for the Innu. Today I've been taught how the Innu are, at the jobs as well. I like working, I like working on the small projects but not the kind of work I, for ten year work. When I look at myself I love jobs. The jobs are okay for somebody who look after his own job. But I have never give up working for the Innu. I can fight as much as I can fight. I also came up, I came to Davis, came back to Davis, three months, three years to attend a Nechi program in order to help myself stop drinking. By looking at Davis, Davis can be very helpful. If you look at the community of Sheshatshiu as well, some individuals came to Utshimassits to attend a Nechi program as well. Because I don't look the community of Davis as a bad looking place. I can see a lot of strength in the community, in Davis. Davis is a small community but--Davis is a small community but there is a lot of strength in the community.

By looking at the animals, thinking about the animals and the Innu, dreams come true, they work. Even a drum, when you listen, it works. When you hold a child, it works. A child is very important. When I was growing up I didn't recognize a child as a very important person. It's also important when you sit down with an elder, when you talk to elders it's also important. Only when I look at, I can understand the elders very scared of their land, what it look like now. The others look after the land but they also got to protect their grandchildren and their grandchildren to come. Maybe some day I'll be an elder to look after my grandchildren and try to protect the land.

Many times when crises happens in the community children suicide, children are gas sniffing. I was like that when I was growing up. Before I started helping myself I used to drink a lot. I lost a child because of drinking. There are times that I want to kill myself after losing my child. If I could have done that what can I get out of it, nothing. Today I'm sitting here with you, probably my children is happy to being back to my home community. My children are very happy to see me back in my home community and to see me sober. Today I'm tired, today we are tired, we try to work real hard, try the best results we can have. Sometimes when I think about the time is too short, everyone of us thinks about different. Sometimes we don't listen very carefully. When we don't understand this is where they end up fighting each other, lot of misunderstanding. And this is where a lot of blame, blame on somebody else and this is person who said this and blame this person because he is the one who said it. I would rather prefer him better understanding among myself. When I look at myself there used to be a lot of fighting amongst our leaders in Sheshatshiu, including the Innu Nation, when I was fighting against them as well. When I look at myself and I'm the only one who hurt myself because I noticed that down the road I was doing something wrong.

Today when I think about the problems that we deal with in the community, sometimes I just sit back and watch what the results are going to be. Many times we get tired. Once the development starts, there's going to be a lot of people are going to be tired. I certainly don't know if the Project starts, when development starts that might be good or bad, I don't know. When you look at Social Service today, today we heard of Social Services, the Missionaries used to be around the school. Today when you talk about the Project, the development, I haven't seen somebody from the Missionaries today. Today I see Innu and Social Services. When I was drinking I remember Social Services take away one of my child. When I think about that today, she return a kid to me. I remember that when I used to drink they keep taking my children away from me and I don't want to get revenge for it or do revenge for it. Whatever she done to me in the past, it's hard to forget but I accept what happened to me in the past but I didn't recognize it as a problem, now I recognize it as a problem but right now I don't want to put something in place like as a revenge.

When I look at my children today, today I'm sober. But five of my children have left the family, go on a different path because they remember Davis sexual abuse, they couldn't work in their community so they have to move to another community. Not once I ever told my children to go to somewhere else and get somebody to work on your problem but I never told my children that. This is the way I started recognize the problems in the communities. I can recognize the problem with alcoholism and gas sniffing in the communities. That's all I have to say, thank you very much.

MS. RICH: The next person on the list is Mary Jane Nui.

INTERPRETER SPEAKING FOR MARY JANE NUI: My name is Mary Jane Nui, you probably heard Joachim Nui speaking earlier, that's my husband. But you can hear him talking today but when you hear from me it will be a little bit different story. When I was born I was born at Ashupun Lake nearby Border Beacon. My late grandfather used to look after me and we moved to Voisey's Bay. All those years my grandfather used to look after me, he never abused me in any way. I used to love my grandparents a lot. And again, I can see the Panel came back to the community and I would like to thank you for coming back to the community. And again I want to say the pain that I have been carrying but I never had a drink of alcohol before but I had caused me a pain. Even some of my children drink alcohol as well. Today I'm very scared of what it will look like today. Today I'm scared. My children are full grown and my grandchildren are still growing up and today, when I look at the Panel, I got a question to the Panel, I can also understand the Social Service, I know Kate Gray. They done a large amount of work for the community and he knows the community. And I know he talks a lot and--he put a lot of work, but I can also notice that the RCMP had tried to work. When I look at the non natives in this room, you people don't know the Innu. The Social Service, like Kate Gray, she knows the Innu and I know her pretty well and I know the other individuals, not Innu, who help out the Innu. We should try to believe in what they are saying. It's a different lifestyle. Maybe you should try to believe what our advisors are, what they are saying, because they know what the Innu are like. And I know myself and I know them very personally. Don't think I'm telling lies, but I'm telling the truth.

I would like to talk about the Voisey's Bay when I was up there last time. What's the Voisey's Bay going to look like some day? When I was in there July, I used to go with some friends and I would explore--they were on a tour to the drilling sites. But I never seen some kind of worms before. So is my father and they put them in a plastic container but I never seen some kind of worms before, in that area. And one of the experts at Voisey's Bay told us--they told us too, but we never seen them before. That's the only problem that you going to be facing. But I never seen the lakes so polluted already, but I never seen other lakes in the other territory and what's the area going to look like? If the Project goes ahead, there's going to be more, a lot of impacts for the Innu, there's going to be wildlife, the spirit of the wildlife. They travel a lot all over the land, partridge. They will travel amongst the--and the Innu medicine as well, underground. I know, I still use the Innu medicine that's underground and I need to put that--to tell you the truth, I'm not trying to put hard on you. And I see that we should--I believe the Project should not go ahead because we don't want our wildlife be destroyed. When you look at the children, the grandchildren, what they would look like, they wouldn't like the Project go ahead. With those children, grandchildren, with the land being given away by our ancestors, but we must listen each other, the Project must not go ahead. And we must listen to the Social Services as well. They are not saying anything. The Panel shouldn't ask technical questions to the Social Service because Social Service knows the Innu, they had worked with them in the community but the Panel never did. But he said he had a friend, but there's been not one of our friends came to Davis and he knows she is living with the Innu so many years. And we've been eating the same food year after year.

There's only one way to find out this. Once the caribou herd usually arrive year after year and that's where we can find out if something wrong with the meat. Right now, all those years the caribou came along to the community. I can see the caribou. I used to go with my husband. I could notice right away the caribou is getting skinnier. It's like--waste, just like water. Today it is fall. I ask my husband to shoot that caribou but I see the caribou and I was born by the caribou, fed by the caribou and I told my husband to shoot that caribou. My husband shot the caribou and I know what the caribou looks like. The years I seen the skinny caribou in one hunting trip. Today I can see the caribou, the caribou are well fed today. And again, today I'm asking you to listen to the Innu and I'm asking you to listen to the other Innu and myself and I've been attending the public hearing in Sheshatshiu and any other important meetings. And I really support my people and put a lot of power to support my people and today I would like to thank you. Thank you for coming in and listening to me and I would like to thank Kate Gray. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

MS. RICH: Before we go any further, are there any questions that you want to ask to the people that spoke? They were Sylvester Rich, Joachim Nui and Mary Jane Nui that spoke.

MS. MICHAEL: Does Sylvester have a microphone? Sylvester, I would just like you to explain a bit more to me what you mean when you say you have to look after the land but you also have to look after the grandchildren. How do you have to look after the grandchildren, what do you want to do in order to look after the grandchildren?

INTERPRETER SPEAKING FOR SYLVESTER RICH: When I look at myself I think about the land. When you look after a kid and growing up with a kid, growing up with a child, you also like looking after the land.

MS. MICHAEL: That's okay. I understand what you mean. Thank you.

MR. METCALFE: Joachim Nui, in your presentation you said that you were concerned about the environment when you said you did not have any real opposition to the Project going ahead if it's approved, but you still have concerns about the environment and also you said that the Project had helped the younger generation because you're almost ready to retire. I'm retired, so almost old as me. So I just want you to explain a little bit more what you are really concerned about when you say the environment, are you talking about everything or--just tell me a little bit more in your own words please.

INTERPRETER SPEAKING FOR JOACHIM NUI: Once the Project goes ahead and I'm not opposed to the Project and I'm not saying that I don't like the money. If the Project goes ahead or the development, there would be something in the development starts, there's something should be well looked after. They are scared that the wildlife might be destroyed. Today I'm saying--today what I heard, there's something that is dangerous about the work but I can understand some of the non natives are still working on to get the development growth ahead. And today I'm saying that again. And today I'm also not saying that the Project should not go ahead but what I'm saying today is that the environment should be well looked after or not to be destroyed. And that's all something bothering me. And again, what I said earlier, I'm old enough, getting old. Today I'm--I'm 63 today. Not today. I don't think--when I'm to great 65, but I know I unable to work if the Project goes ahead and I'm also thinking about my grandchildren once the Project goes ahead and I'm thinking about my grandchildren, that they can work at the site if the development goes ahead.

MR. METCALFE: And Mary Jane, I just want clarification here because maybe I heard the translation wrong. I thought in your presentation you said that today the caribou are skinnier and also you spoke about when you were with your husband caribou hunting or when you saw a caribou, that particular caribou was really fat. Were you trying to say that caribou are different today than they were when you were younger?

INTERPRETER SPEAKING FOR MS. MARY JANE: Today I went travelling lot, many times to the country. And on many occasions I go hunting with my husband and I see the caribou. The caribou are skinny that I seen running the barren ground. And I seen my husband and I know about four years ago, please believe me what I said and I've been in the country many times and I've been in with my father. My husband go caribou hunting and I've seen the waste of the caribou. When I was growing up, I never seen a wasted caribou like that before when I was growing up. But today I seen the waste of the caribou, it's like water. When I see my husband shooting that caribou, the liver in the guts and I can see it's like the caribou is being--but when I was growing up I never seen a caribou like that before. About three years ago this fall, it looked like the caribou a lot better this fall and the waste is not like, just like water. What I'm saying today I'm not lying but I know what it's like but it's hard to be--our lives is very hard. When I used to carry caribou meat on the back, sometimes I get a sore neck but I want to continue and be strong, not to lose the culture of the Innu. And that's all I have to say, thank you.

MR. METCALFE: Thank you.

MR. RICH: The next person is Elizabeth Rich.

INTERPRETER SPEAKING FOR ELIZABETH RICH: I am Elizabeth Rich. I'm 60 years old, almost 61 he said today. When I was born--I want to tell you about to share with you when I was growing up my parents--but I have been told many times, I've been told many times not to ask for. I've been told many times by my father don't let anybody feel sorry for you. It's like living in a house. Everything is in supplies, like stores, the furniture, but I know what my father was saying to me. And again, I was getting worse, I was getting sick and getting worse and I thought I was going to die. And he told me one time, he said you move out of here and a doctor told me take me away from the community and put me in the hospital and have good care of me and put me in the hospital. When I returned back to the community and when I look at the Innu in Davis when I was returning back and one of my brothers told me because no one will like you because you're being in the white culture, many years in the hospital. And there's many times that I have been asked by my brother. Today I notice that today. My brother has passed away. That's why I started to go to the meetings and I understand what is going on in the meetings now. And right now I'm very disappointed. When I found out no one didn't have respect against me. This is our land and I'm very disappointed today and I feel I'm not very strong. Today I'm saying I'm not going to just sit in my room and today I said I will not be abused. Today I take a complaint--for everybody and for the community. Today I make a complaint too. And I was thinking about living alone and I wouldn't. I don't think I would feel comfortable living with somebody else and I decided to live on my own. When you respect the other person you have to be careful when you talk to them because they might not respect you and I'm not jealous, I'm trying to be careful--jealous or not.

And today I like the children today. And today my house is all--I have to leave my house and I have adopted some children, to live with the children now, they don't care about their children. I have to move out of my house, get those children move in there. I would like to help the people, I am that caused--I maybe the one who caused you this pain and I don't want to be any part of it. When I was growing when I was sick and the doctor used to look after me and I always remember that time. I remember that the doctor provided me good care when I was sick. Today I have no mother and a father, they all passed away. Today. And again, I'm happy as well. When I see the non native people in this room. When I try to help the native people and I heard they try to help the native people. If they don't like me in this room, I know that many times when a non native never invited me and I notice that I can tell that they don't want me around. And again, I don't have any problem, the non native move in and live in the community because this is Innu land but I certainly don't have a problem. This is an Innu community here. I can notice very well what the minds of the Innu are. Today I'm very disappointed. I wouldn't be able to kiss and be great praise to a non-native person. My late--my oldest brother passed away. He's the one who told me, stopped me many times, many occasions to go to any meetings. Today I'm 60. He always stop me to go to any meetings or any events going on in the community. Today I think about the non natives, not the people, non-native people I think about that they divided the community. It's so easy for a non native to divide the community, community like Davis Inlet. And they are divided, divided community. And I don't want to be like a person to share, to feel sorry for those people but I can do this on my own without asking for another help. But I know somebody had asked me to come to this meeting and I know somebody had respect me and I can come to any meetings now because before I never asked to attend a meeting. And that's all I have to say, yes that's it.

MS. RICH: The next person is George Riche.

MR. RICHE: I have nothing prepared. I was told by Peter Penashue to attend on his behalf because of his translation. I was going to prepare something but I'm going to try to do it in my heart, try to find out if the answers are there. There's always answers. First of all, let me begin by saying welcome to the community. Although I'm not here anymore, been three years in Goose Bay studying, studying for the Voisey's Bay. Always the first in line, there four years ago when the Project was out. Also the first in line in protest against any development because at that time I was (unintelligible) on the Innu Nation, was the Vice-President of the Innu Nation at that time. Over the years there's been a lot of difference. I was growing up in a community the past 30 years. I was moved here by my parents when I was five years old from the old Davis Inlet and went to the school here, the name is Mushuau Innu School. At that time there were Missionaries. Missionaries and there was also regular visits by the RCMP and the regular visits by social workers who would deliver the cheques at the time. Over the years you can see a difference, the result of the chaos caused by the Missionaries, the government officials and the government policies that's been going on for a number years and is still going on today. That's one of the reasons that we see the chaos in the community.

First of all, let me begin by saying that the government (unintelligible) that will simulate the Innu into white men has been successful so far because the past three years I've been urban Indian in Goose Bay, looking for scraps, looking for work here and there. I've been trying to look for housing which I could never get because I happen to be the black hair and the brown face. A friend of ours was a teacher here at one time here in Davis, moved back to Goose Bay. A few months when he's in Goose Bay, he happened to get a job in Sheshatshiu, got a nice apartment way up in the base. Like I said, I was prepared for Voisey's Bay, I was preparing my children for Voisey's Bay also. Because here right now you see the chaos, you see a lot of studies being done on environmental issues. We have experts all over the world coming to Davis Inlet trying to find out what went wrong, what's this and this and all that. I know what's wrong because I happen to be born here. No, I wasn't born here, I was born in Nain, Labrador but I lived here most of my life. I worked with the Innu for the past 17 years. Started out young when I was 16 years old. Over the years I experienced alcoholism, suicides. I happen to be the victim of--my first wife, common-law wife killed herself when she was about 17 or 18 years old. I have two children with her. At that time I was a drinking man. I have given away all my children, two of them because I couldn't look after myself because I was drinking here and there, working with a bank also here and there, flying all over the place so I can defend Innu rights. And when my son was five years old, he was adopted by his grandparents. I approached Social Services for the name of Ruby Harkness of the NCC. I was also work for the department of Social Services. I told Ruby Harkness I want to be in control of my son. I want to take care of him, I want to look after him. Ruby Harkness turned to me and said you have no legal ground George, he's been legally adopted by his grandparents. And I told Ruby Harkness few years from now you're going to experience a lot of problems with this boy because he's not going to school regularly, he's not looking--has been spoiled in a number of areas. A 10 year old boy who got about $100 in his pocket, there's something wrong. And now, a problem occurs, he's in a correctional centre right now. Because there is no education, I don't see no hope for his future. I don't see no hope to succeed in living. All he's going to turn out to be, welfare. We have all kinds of people coming here in Goose Bay trying to solve our problems; people from the west, people from the north, people everywhere, even overseas. Trying to resolve the problem that's been here for decades. I've been strapped, been sexually abused by the Missionaries and that case is still ongoing. So far, I haven't seen any Innu, only one or two Innu working at Voisey's Bay. The only people I see has been from the St. John's area, Goose Bay or in Northwest River. I haven't seen any Innu getting high positions up in Voisey's Bay because we've been pampered a lot of times by people in the south, because people of the north have been forgotten because we were ruled by God fearing people who held those positions in Voisey's Bay. And as well those positions in Social Services, among the other government departments. So far, I haven't seen any study done on the impacts, what's going to happen, impacts on what's going to happen on the children because once we have money, we have money to spend, we spend on booze nowadays. And that kind of study should be done and this kind of study on education alone and educational needs must be done on the original people of the north.

The real impact I'm afraid is going to happen from Nain, Davis Inlet and Hopedale among the areas of southern Labrador or in Sheshatshiu or Goose Bay, those people are not going to be impact at all. We going to have to concentrate on two or three Innu and Inuit communities because I feel that's where the impact is going to be. Some people have spoken about blaming the people themselves. It wasn't the white people--it wasn't the Innu people who make alcohol, it wasn't Innu people who grow drugs in their backyard. It is the outside people, people from St. John's, people from Goose Bay, people from Montreal. And that's the people. Right now we experience drugs in communities which has been--there have been in my time when I was starting drinking when I was 16 years old and quit drinking about 7-1/2 years ago. I seen a lot of difference of opinions in here. I seen Joachim Nui when he mentioned he's not opposed to development. I agree with Joachim, I'm not opposed to development because right now because I'm going to have to look after my children, I'm going to have to look after my grandchildren and I know that one is on the way and who is going to look after them. I don't think the two Band Councils or Innu Nation is going to look after them. There's also concern about disease coming up in northern coast, where do these disease come from? Not from our aboriginal people, people from St. John's, Montreal and all over, those ones who brought the diseases. There's a lot more studies has to be done. We don't have to concentrate on environmentalists, we don't have to concentrate on sociologists, anthropologists to do the studies on those things. Why not hire people from the north, Nain or Hopedale or Davis to try to find out the impacts and what kind of studies need to be done that relates to education that eventually gets them a job at Voisey's Bay?

I participate in all three training programs that's going on with CONA, College of North Atlantic. So far, there's nothing accomplished in there, it's not going ahead. But I would like to point out that getting involved with College of North Atlantic, the other private colleges would only make the matter worse for people of the north, people of Davis Inlet, people of Nain and people of Hopedale because of who's going to (unintelligible) look after people in Goose Bay, that's what he's doing right now. How many aboriginal students are in College of North Atlantic? If they want to participate any kind of programs at all they were told go to Davis Inlet, go to Sheshatshiu. That's what they're doing right now. But I would like to point out and make recommendations if this Project is going ahead I would like to ask the Innu people to participate, like to ask Innu from Nain, Hopedale, Makkovik, to participate in the training program themself. Have one aboriginal institute to train for aboriginal people because they're the ones will be left out. They're the ones who left out right now. How many of the Innu people work in the Voisey's Bay? How many of those Innu people from Davis Inlet working with the environmentalists, the groups that are there now? None. There's only one Sheshatshiu Innu in there. We never came here today to explain the issues. Like all the new stuff on the board, issues, scoping, what is that, the value of environmental component, what is that? I know IBA means money, that's all that I know. And the training got to be concentrate now and to me, we're spending a lot of money and time on EIS. I know we have to depend on the land because I used to do a lot of fishing at that area in Voisey's Bay. And now, a few years, couple of years ago three of us went there, hardly no fish, hardly no charr. Seems like they don't spawn there anymore. And there are a lot more things going on there than meets the eye. Who is the environmental monitor for Innu Nation now? Happen to be a guy who is living in Sheshatshiu for years. Why are those jobs not posted to the Innu people? If you want to get this right, I think we have to start at the grass roots level, start on the level where people who are going to be affected by this is for the people of the north, people who live close to the area and they're the ones that are going to be totally impacted. They are impacted right now through drugs and alcohol and those people have to concentrate on. Thank you very much.

MS. RICH: The next person is James Pasteen.

(BREAK)

INTERPRETER SPEAKING FOR MR. JAMES PASTEEN: I will make it short because I couldn't hardly talk right now, problem with my breathing. The days when I was young I was learn how to be Innu and learn the Innu skills, that's what I'm going to talk about. My mother told me she wasn't also very well woman at the time, she told me that when I die they're going to be a lot of people do a lot of damage on the Innu because she already had experienced that when during her years, that's when I really got frightened concerned, what she told me. She told me that when your father and your mother die you will experience a change, you will experience--damages were done on the Innu people and I was really frightened when she told me. I will listen to them. I really listened to them every time they putting out advice as I was growing up and understand what she had mentioned. I was told to stay away from the ritual Mokushan when I was a kid. I couldn't go where they held the ritual Mokushan because I would be afraid of stepped on tripped over, the ritual that was going on. I was told to stay away from those feasts.

Our elders respect the Mokushan ritual. Even if someone spitted out or didn't do any--because they have to work at it very carefully when looking over through looking after the Mokushan. Because if we spoil the ritual, if we spoil the Mokushan and whoever killed the caribou, a hunter who hunted caribou would probably end up doing something to his health. In the old days the elder respect everything, the way of life, they respect everything what's going on and the way to hunt, the way to hunt caribou. It was a really concern for the elders to respect the way of life. And that's what we ask our spirits, the spirits of the animals to provide us because when return we will respect our killings, our meat. During my years I never eaten anything store bought food, I never eat anything when I was growing up, I always eat the country food, the Nutshimist food. I was growing up in area of Voisey's Bay, there a lot of people, Innu people there from Davis and lot of people passed on when I experienced living in the Voisey's Bay.

Look at me, I have old man and I have another in-law up in Sheshatshiu, there's two of us. Two of us were living in the area of Voisey's Bay when we were young. It's very difficult nowadays. Back in the days it was very difficult. When I see the elders I don't see them use store bought clothing, I haven't seen them. All they did is use caribou hides and using as clothing and mittens or pants or--there was no store bought clothes in the time, it's all caribou hide. The elders helped themselves, they were self sufficient. We are using caribou because we kill the caribou by spear and he kill as many as they want when he hunt caribou. It's very difficult in old days. I cannot predict what's going to happen in the future, I can only tell you what I did in the past and what I seen in the past. I'm also not going to spread any things that I hear, I only going to tell you what I know. I'm not going to say what this guy is saying, I'm just going to tell you what I know.

I grew up in Mushuau Shipu, there were a lot of elders, a lot of Innu people in that area. They gathered and try, especially the elderly woman gathered and try caribou meat. They usually store--they usually got the teepee aside and store caribou meat in there. That way it smoked the caribou meat, that way it wouldn't be spoiled. And then when the Mushuau Innu who were--the other Innu clans like in Schefferville or Northwest River or roaming area know when there's Mushuau Innu in that area. They come and they went to visit them and they brought store bought foods like tea, sugar, flour and people from Sept-Isles gave, people from Sept-Isles gave the store bought foods too and Mushuau Innu in Mushuau people, give them flour, tea and bread and anything. In return they would trade dry meat and anything because the Innu always--don't know how to take care of the wildlife, know how to dry it and they will give them to for the visitors come from the other Innu communities. It was very hard and struggle in the old days and today it's not hardly any struggle now.

Just before when the Missionaries came, because we haven't been contact with the Missionaries in the country--come to Davis Inlet and the areas of Voisey's Bay, that's when the Missionaries start coming in. The Missionary came to Voisey's Bay to urge us to go to Davis Inlet where we could see what's in there, what's available. From Voisey's Bay to travel to old Davis Inlet, we went to church, mass performed by the Missionary. In return he will give us food. After the mass and the church and everything, the Missionaries gave us the store bought foods and we went back to Voisey's Bay. That's what we've been doing in the summers, going back and forth to Davis and after that during the fall we will end up going to the interior. We experienced a very hard life in those days. We stay up in Nain one time. We always encountered with the Innu people, they respect us and in return we respect them. They help us what we need and we help them what they need and they also lonely at the time. He mentioned name--Mr.--also mentioned Amos Voisey, he worked at Voisey's Bay trading post. After they passed away at Voisey's Bay and the trading post was closed, we ended up heading back to old Davis Inlet where there's a trading post there and we loved and worked. We loved and lived in Voisey's Bay.

We also were starving for wildlife, we were starved for food. Every time we hear and see the Missionary. Sometimes the store will be empty and nothing on shelves and we would starve for food. The settlers around are the ones who bought all the food because they're the ones who got all the money. Every time the Missionary came to Davis he gave enough food, enough grub for everybody in the community. There was a mineral find somewhere that time, somewhere in Labrador. People in Schefferville, Fort Chimo, were told to go where the work is, where this mineral was found. And they mine the mine and the rock and a lot of work, a lot of jobs for everybody in Schefferville. The houses were put up for the Innu over there in Schefferville and they work at mine. There were a lot of people working. They were told that there is a very good--the mineral was found and is very--could last a lifetime. And after the ore, the mineral at the Schefferville, and by train going to Sept-Isles. And everything after that, there was family allowance and everything, there's welfare that's come along and the result of that is the Innu people get family allowance and welfare from the government at the time after the mine was found in Schefferville. Eventually we ended up here on this island, Davis Inlet. We were told the houses will be put up for us to live and we were told the houses going to look like and what the infrastructure is going to be like, everything is going to be in there we were told. The houses we were told, we were to train how to live in a house like this and after that we eventually living in those houses, turn up to be very--cracks and doors were broken and it was very cold, the stove wasn't ideal for the house. Eventually, end up using a tin stove. And we eventually used two bricks to hold up my tin stove.

Eventually, somebody tipped over my tin stove, could have burned the whole house down. I didn't like that house because we were being betrayed by the people who told us they were going to build houses and the houses turned out to be a lot of cracks and holes and turned out to be very cold. Eventually, throughout the years renovations constantly going on every year, eventually to turn out to be the way the exact spot, but still there's no water and there's no water and sewer in the houses. And I wonder what's it going like in our new site in new location. I also like to point out if I know there is going to be something the way my house is going to be. Also, the low level flying and other developments that's going on and all that. She flies very low because that way they'll get their training and that's what they intend to do in our territory, fly real low. One time when travel by komatik back in the old days I saw one of those low level flying jets. I don't think they fly real high because I could see the screws on the jet and right now I couldn't see any, now getting old and at that time I thought it was real low when I was travelling in the country. And those level flying jets, told us that we lied. I don't think he fly that high, he was real low. I was travelling by komatik at that time. My dog team were really frightened, startled by those because I was afraid because I expected I saw them. I don't think they're not--trying to fly over the Innu people. I wonder why they kept wanting to do that. Now they are flying everywhere right now. I experienced them after they flying, one summer I experienced them and two summers when they fly they really--you could see the damages the cost already to the wildlife and anybody, every animal using this land, whether it's bird or caribou. And after that, the caribou started dying out and getting skinnier every year. I mentioned this also to a white man who came one I was--I told him about the caribou and I mentioned to an expert saying that I never seen anything like this ever since I was growing up, I never seen any skinny caribou. My parents never experienced this kind of skinny caribou. This time I see and not only me, the others experience and see very disturbing caribou. In Hopedale, the ones that saw that caribou lying dead on the ice and we were told by the people in Hopedale not to eat the caribou because might be something wrong with the caribou. Been experienced out there, knowing the caribou, I wouldn't eat it because what I'm saying is true, is not lie. And I'm not very keen on the idea of development. We heard also stories about the caribou that's disturbing and there's a whole lot herd that's dying and that's very skinny. We also know that the wildlife officers who used to flying over this caribou and there's also--the caribou themselves stepping over their food because we were also talking to the wildlife officer about this, why they flying over caribou.

When last caribou season he was the one who was disturbing the caribou and is also changed through migration or route, because I know this wildlife officer. Let me finish by saying that in Voisey's Bay--I say this three times already, I was hurt when somebody mentioned this before. During the winter shipping, concern about winter shipping because the people in Davis travel to Nain back and forth. I heard this three times right now, there's going to winter shipping in Voisey's Bay and I'm very concerned about it because of people will travel back and forth to Nain. I was thinking there might be something--Voisey Project might be going ahead and if there is a possibility of winter shipping, I know you will have some concerns about it. I know there might be something--older people using ice will be killed, whether the animal or man, everybody using the ice, that's what I was going to say. Now I'm glad I brought this up because afraid I was going to forget it. That's probably the last time I'm going to mention. Winter shipping will cause chaos to the Innu and Inuit because they used to winter hunting and they used to back and forth to Nain all the time. We could have stayed in our home in Voisey's Bay when those two traders never closed out and my in-law who travelled to Sheshatshiu, travel in Sheshatshiu to get married, that's where his wife was born and my wife was born here. My wife can hardly walk right now, she's very old right now. If there's jobs in Voisey's Bay, I think it would be wise if you get Inuit people and after that the hired people from outside, there's enough jobs for them. I think the first choice will be Innu, Innuit, although our first Innu discovered of that mineral was passed away there years ago. The Voisey's Bay people should realize that they should come to the Innu first for advice now. Everybody is stealing it right now without informing the Innu here in Davis. Every people who lived in poverty should be able to get opportunity to work in Voisey's Bay. Now that fishery is gone in northern Labrador, now there's nothing right now, they are probably on welfare and they should--and also, those cod moratorium, they give money to these people. I think they should work at Voisey's Bay to settlers, the Innu and Inuit leaving north coast. That's what--I don't understand that much, the fishery. Now this division, I don't know how much he's going to get, there's not enough, seems to be not enough money going on now. I heard but I didn't see--I guess I brought it up, I heard from one Innu when those Arctic Charr are spawning in that pond, that river, somebody was saying that they put a dam, they put a little dam or man made dam in there so the Arctic Charr couldn't spawn over it. During my years in Voisey's Bay I seen arctic charr spawning that pond over there. Every time we hungry, we always go there to fish and right now we heard a rumour going on that there's little dam there, man made dam there that Arctic Charr couldn't go through. I don't understand why they have a dam at the place. I think I guess everybody see the way he thinks that it should be done, like in Mushuau Shipu or George River, the arctic salmon, atlantic salmon will spawn in that area too, they travel long ways, they never put any dam in George River. I like to finish now, I'm very tired and I like to thank you very much. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

MS. RICH: Do the panel have any questions for the speakers? Elizabeth Rich, George Riche and James Pasteen.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I have a question for George Riche. I just wanted to go back to some things that you were talking about around education and training and I guess I had two questions. One was you were talking about the education really of children, your children and other people's children and you were also, later on, you were talking about training in preparation for Voisey's Bay, should it go ahead. But the first one was the education for children. I just wondered if you could say a bit more about what's going on currently with education here in Davis and what changes you would like to see, what changes you think need to happen in terms of education for the kids. And then maybe I'll ask the other question afterwards.

MR. RICHE: Well I talk about education in general, it's very broad. Regarding the training the aboriginal people of the north, right now, for the possible jobs at Voisey's Bay. And also, there is a number of training programs that has been placed by the Band Council the previous years regarding the upgrading, try to get grade 12 equivalency. There's also training regarding whether the students right now outside regarding their personal interest, not trained by Voisey's Bay alone. There is--what I like to see happen in regards with the training, getting an education, is to educate the people right now because we wasting time right now talking about the education. We going to talk about the education three or four years down the road. By that time all the skilled people, the people who already works towards the Voisey's Bay jobs will be gone. We have to concentrate on training the aboriginal people to know it right now, they're the ones with first crack at those jobs because I involved and participate in most of the meetings with the multi training meetings that was going on in Goose Bay with conjunction with CONA, College of North Atlantic and Voisey's Bay. Those two or three meetings I attended, they've been stalling, as far as I know at Voisey's Bay, they've been stalling trying to put funds in that program, although I don't know, they might funding there now because it's been a while I've been attended meetings. And beyond that, what I like to see because right now as I listen to the news and I know what the provincial government is doing in regard to education. The College of the North Atlantic will be down in slumps again and who's a better position to scream for funds right now. It will be probably Ron Sparkes will be screaming for funds to get funding for the college in Goose Bay. I think we have an expertise, we have the resources that could maintain and manage our own aboriginal educational institute for northern people. Because so far we're so far behind in regards with training for skills and what sort of skills are needed in Voisey's Bay. Because I think it would be very wise choice and wise investment to concentrate on the people of the north and try to concentrate on establishing some kind of an institute for people--for aboriginal people of the north in general.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I ask if Innu Nation has been discussing this with LIA?

MR. RICHE: I'm not sure, I'm not with Innu Nation, I'm currently a student myself and trying to enrol in one of the programs, I'm not sure.

CHAIRPERSON: So you're right now taking training in Goose Bay -

MR. RICHE: My program starts next month.

CHAIRPERSON: And are you the only Innu that's enrolled in that program?

MR. RICHE: Hopefully there will be three or four because that's what the aboriginal people--they need at least three or four in the classroom in order to make it work, in order to succeed. Because with my experience in trying to do upgrading, try to get my grade 12 equivalency, I was surrounded by the people who don't know me, I was surrounded by instructors who care about people of the north, who don't know the people of the north and who doesn't know what the training required. Because if you have one Innu student in one of those colleges, eventually he or she going to give up because of lack of people to talk to, because of lack of understanding of the culture and lack of understanding what the process is all about. The only way I would find would work is to have a real understanding, personal understanding of the real culture and what to expect when Voisey's Bay and beyond, whatever is the developments up there.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

MS. RICH: At this point we would like to show a video tape that was done by the Innu Nation and it's called "I'm Telling the Truth". It's about an hour and I think it will be best if we end it with that videotape and resume tomorrow morning.

Upon concluding at 5:30 p.m.